Witnesses
- Lisa P. Jackson, Nominated to be Administrator of the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency
- Nancy Helen Sutley, Nominated to be Chairman of the Council on
Environmental Quality
10:00 Boxer: Today marks a turning point for the environment and the
health of the United States. I want to welcome Mrs. Jackson, who I’ve
had the privilege to have several discussions in my office. Nancy Sutley
has a strong record of service in my state of California. The mission of
the EPA is to protect the public health and
the environment. EPA must rely on science, not
special interests. The chair of the CEQ needs
to bring all the voices in the administration together.
10:11 Inhofe: What exactly is going to be the role of the new energy
czar Carol Browner?
10:15 Lautenberg (D-N.J.): I am delighted to be able to greet Lisa
Jackson. Lisa has fought to keep our state’s air clean. The challenges
facing our environment are serious, numerous, and require immediate
action.
10:20 Bob Menendez (D-N.J.): I’m proud to join my colleague in
presenting Lisa Jackson to the committee. Her scientific background
complements her managerial experience. I believe she will be the best
administrator in the history of the department we have seen. In New
Jersey, only the strong survive. Not only has she survived, she has
thrived.
10:25 Boxer (D-Cal.): I’m going to miss Sens. Bond and Voinovich. But we
keep renewing this Senate. Even when we disagree we’ve had a great
working relationship.
10:26 Bond: We’ll do everything we can to keep it interesting.
10:27 Inhofe: We had breakfast this morning with the new members. I will
really miss these two guys.
10:27 Klobuchar: I welcome our two new members. I enjoyed meeting with
Jackson and Sutley. First, to quote Sen. Clinton, I’ve been very
concerned that the EPA has been “operating in
an evidence-free zone.” I’d like no more redacted testimony, and no more
testimony intended to mislead on the facts and the law. Home-grown
energy will generate a boom in our economy. I look forward to your
thoughts how protecting the environment will create a 21st-century
economy.
10:31 Barrasso: Congratulations to both of you, and thank you for both
coming to my office. We in Wyoming are concerned when federal laws are
used in ways they were never intended. Ranchers and miners in Wyoming
know that dealing with climate change through the Clean Air Act would be
a disaster. Turning the Endangered Species Act into a climate change
bill is something Congress never intended. The true intent of the Clean
Water Act—there’s overwhelming objection to extending jurisdiction over
all water in the United States.
10:35 Boxer: We really have very big differences. You’re not going to
make everybody happy. If you do, you’re doing nothing.
10:36 Merkley: We’ll miss Voinovich and Bond’s experience.
10:38 Bond: I want to protect the natural resources of Missouri. I was
the co-author of the acid rain emissions trading provisions of the Clean
Air Act. We need to protect our families. We’re suffering right now.
They’re facing the housing crisis and job loss. Protecting families from
climate change proposals that would raise costs by $6.7 trillion. That
means zero-carbon nuclear power. Cellulosic ethanol. We want clean cars.
We want clean coal technology. But we can’t support proposals from East
and West Coast states that would kill Midwest manufacturing. We want to
find a middle ground.
10:42 Carper: We can no longer afford inaction on climate change or air
pollution. We must send the right signals to industry. We need leaders
that can build alliances. I can think of noone more qualified to lead
the EPA and the CEQ
than Ms. Jackson and Ms. Sutley. Inaction means that thousands will die
prematurely from pollution, thousands of children will be exposed to
mercury.
10:47 Alexander: I enjoyed our meeting. Sen. Carper and I have worked
together quite a bit: we need a new CAIR rule
and a new rule on mercury. In discussions about climate change, I hope
you will focus on carbon-free solutions and be skeptical of so-called
renewable solutions—they’re just wind. Windmills on our ridges would
interfere with our views of the Smokies. Subsidies for wind are 27 times
greater per kilowatt-hour than any other renewables. All revenues from
cap and trade should be returned to the people. A carbon-free fuel
standard and cap and trade for power plants would cover two-thirds of
all carbon emitted, then return all the money collected to people having
trouble paying their energy bills.
10:51 Cardin: Thank you for being willing to serve. I’ve had the chance
to talk with both of you in my office. The first issue I’m going to
bring up is the Chesapeake Bay.
10:55 Isakson (R-Ga.): I’m very impressed by her resume, Tulane and
Princeton. One of the unintended consequences of regulation is that it
sometimes doesn’t work. There are ways to find flexibility. The
potential regulation of greenhouse gases by the department has included
the possibility of taxation on livestock. We have to be very careful
about regulating natural emissions. I didn’t always agree with Carol
Browner but she had a lot of sense. I was proud to be able to talk with
you, Ms. Sutley, yesterday. It’s very important that we come up with a
working water plan.
10:58 Whitehouse (D-R.I.): It is a perilous and fascinating time. With
respect to the EPA, this is an agency that has
fallen into significant distress. It needs its integrity restored. The
people who work at the EPA give up a great
deal in their lives. They’re not significantly well paid. They take
pride in the mission. If you take away that pride by taking away the
integrity of the agency, you risk taking away the key element of the
agency’s success. Johnson has been a disgrace to this country.
11:02 Voinovich (R-Ohio): I think this next two years may be the most
important two years I’ve served. I think some of the work we do on this
committee is going to shape what the future looks like. I enjoyed our
meeting in my office. For the record, I think Steve Johnson did an
outstanding job as head of the EPA.
11:06 Lautenberg (D-N.J.): The EPA prevented
action at the local levels. Under Mr. Johnson, the
EPA sided with industry more often than not.
The current administration has failed to provide sufficient funding to
support the Superfund program. It’s time to usher in a better and
brighter future.
11:10 Merkley (D-Ore.): It has been our experience in the past few years
that it’s been up to the states to take the lead. We have the most
aggressive renewable energy standard. The most aggressive energy
efficiency standards for appliances.
11:15 Baucus (D-Mont.): Asbestos is an insidious poison.
11:17 Vitter (R-La.): I haven’t had a chance to visit with Nancy Sutley.
11:20 Jackson: Opening statement.
11:25 Baucus: Asbestos in Libby, Montana.
Jackson: It sounds like one of the worst sites I’ve heard of. I will
report within 90 days on this issue.
Baucus: EPA’s never done a toxicity
assessment.
11:33 Inhofe: Sen. Boxer and I genuinely like each other. This job is
really tough. I was really pleased that you talked about transparency.
This is very important. I don’t agree with the criticisms with the
current administration not being forthcoming. I think they have. There’s
never been a director who’s been more qualified than Stephen Johnson. I
think he did a very good job.
Jackson: I look forward to working with this committee.
Inhofe: You were very emphatic about science. You said, science is my
guide. That’s music to my ears. I know people don’t want to talk about
it, but so many individuals have changed their mind on global warming. I
want a commitment that you will take the time in the next two weeks that
you will pull up my speech on the floor, and meet with you at some
point.
Jackson: I’m happy to exchange views with you and to read your speech.
11:49 Boxer: It seems to a lot of us that there are disasters waiting to
happen. EPA has authority to act. Will you
commit to quickly assess the sites for immediate hazards and establish
strong standards?
Jackson: EPA must assess the hundreds of sites
out there immediately. Many are upstream of schools. I think
EPA needs to assess first and foremost the
current state. That’s only the beginning. EPA
has in the past assessed its regulatory options with coal ash. It’s time
to reassess those options.
Boxer: Sen Carper is going to have authority over
TVA. We may move legislatively, but I think
you have the authority to act. Rep. Rahall is looking to regulate under
the Mining Act. I don’t think that’s necessary. Last year,
President-elect Obama co-sponsored my bill to grant the California
waiver. Will you immediately revisit the waiver?
Jackson: You have my commitment I will immediately revisit the waiver,
looking at the science and the rule of law, relying on the advice of the
staff.
11:55 Barrasso: On coal ash, I talked about clean coal technology with
the nominee for Sec. of Energy and Interior. We don’t want to limit new
technology.
Jackson: Coal is a vital resource in our country. It provides about 50%
of our electricity. We have to mention in the same breath that it is the
largest source of greenhouse emissions. We must invest aggressively in a
technology that will work.
Barrasso: In the Financial Times, an article talks about what we’re
asking people to do – to save the planet, they have to clean their teeth
in the dark.
Jackson: One of the ways to begin to address climate change today is
energy efficiency. Changing our habits, our appliances. I prefer not to
think of this as pain as individual responsibility. People need to
understand they have a responsibility in the choices they make. We
should give them choices, allow them to have energy-efficient homes,
more efficient cars.
Barrasso: Obama is going to appoint Carol Browner as White House
adviser.
Jackson: Final EPA decisions will be made by
the EPA administrator.
Barrasso: If you two disagree?
Jackson: I take very seriously my legal responsibility to enact the laws
of Congress. Advisers can agree and disagree.
Barrasso: Questions of Congressional intent.
Jackson: I believe the laws are meant to have the flexibility to deal
with the issues of today. I will commit to an ongoing conversation.
Barrasso: Unfunded mandates to states have grown.
Jackson: Budget realities for states are playing out every day. The
EPA administrator has a role in formulating
the President’s budget. Much of the permitting and enforcement work
happens at the state level.
12:04 Lautenberg: I feel in some ways you’re part of my group. This is
an engine that can’t stop. You were instrumental in writing New Jersey’s
global warming law.
Jackson: We now have a modest cap-and-trade program operating in ten
Northeast states. I look forward to sharing that experience with those
in the committee that want to. There’s a tremendous role for states and
municipalities in terms of reducing global warming emissions.
Lautenberg: We have to eliminate or certainly reduce this attack on the
welfare of our children. We are facing something if unchecked will
affect the health of future generations to a disastrous level.
12:12 Isakson: I have a suggestion for you to consider: people in
regulatory positions can assume their relationship with those they
regulate is adversarial, or they can work with businesses. I hope you’ll
work on the issue of downstream pollution.
Jackson: As a resident of a state that gets one-third of its pollution
from outside sources, I well understand the conundrum of meeting
attainment standards.
Isakson: Taxing cattlemen that emit methane naturally since God created
the earth.
Jackson: My commitment is that we will have conversations with
stakeholders. All industries have the potential to do environmental
harm. We have to make sure they are ready to deal with the future.
Isakson: Erosion control and the Clean Water Act.
12:19 Boxer: I can assure you that 80% of this country are much more
worried that we’ve done nothing on CO2.
12:21 Whitehouse: There’s some dispute on this committee on whether the
EPA is in distress. I don’t think there’s any
dispute within the EPA.
Jackson: The role of the Inspector General is important.
Whitehouse: Watch out for OMB. It has become
the political bullyboy influencing agency decisionmaking. I’ve spoken to
Peter Orszag about this. Cass Sunstein’s appearance promises reform.
Rhode Island is one of the states participating in the California
waiver. How much can you go forward on your own?
Jackson: Much of the initial agenda for the
EPA is now set by court decisions. I will
review the California waiver decision forthwith. The Supreme Court has
ordered the EPA to make an endangerment
finding. When that finding is made, it triggers the beginning of the
regulatory process. Another court decision on
CAIR commands EPA to
review that. All those things together means there will be an
extraordinary burst of activity not just from
EPA but also from Congress. I think there is a
real opportunity to move together. Industry would prefer a clear
roadmap. I think there is tremendous opportunity there.
12:29 Boxer: Obama committed not to reviewing the waiver, but signing
the waiver. TVA needs to stop bemoaning
commitments to the environment.
12:32 Cardin: We look forward to the California waiver going forward.
Chesapeake bay and lead poisoning.
Jackson: Lead poisoning in children is an important issue.
12:39 Carper.
12:50 Voinovich: It would be great to get Browner together with the
committee. We haven’t done very much in this committee. We haven’t been
able to harmonize issues of energy, economy, environment. A hundred
communities are being asked to take care of their combined-sewer
overflow problems. We have an interesting environment today. We need to
do more planning than ever before. I think there’s an urgency about
climate change. It has national security implications. But how do you do
something without killing the economy?
Jackson: We need to be able to review our rules: Are they legal, are
they sustainable, are they based on science?
1:02 Merkley: We have one lifetime to address climate change.
1:32 Boxer: Perchlorate. Superfund.
1:50 Jackson hearing concludes.
2:05 Sutley: I will play an important role in formulating the executive
branch’s policy on climate change. There is effectively no agency that
is not touched by these issues. It will be a complete effort by the
executive branch.
Boxer: OMB role.
Sutley: The OMB has executive order
responsibilities. I think science decisions and science review should be
done by science experts in the agencies. I don’t expect people in the
OMB unless they are scientists to review the
science.
Boxer: OMB has gotten involved and called the
shots. It’s a red flag. The Obama OMB may be
different from the Bush OMB. We look to you
for leadership on the environment. From what you’ve said, I feel good
about it. The IRIS program.
2:16 Whitehouse: You play everybody who participated in the public
process for a fool when you make actual decisions in secret. The entire
agency process was a sham, all done behind closed doors by
OMB and the White House. This is an issue I’ve
taken up with OMB.
2:19 Sutley: The question of how the role of the climate adviser is
formulated is an important one. The CEQ will
retain all of its statutory roles. The EPA
administrator will continue her advisory role. Climate change is one of
the most important issues of the day. I can tell you that we will be
working together closely, and the decisions of which policies the
president will pursue will be his decision.
Whitehouse: Will you report to Carol Browner on issues of climate
change?
Sutley: I know we will work together very closely.
Whitehouse: Oceans.
2:27 Boxer: There are some questions in writing that we would like
answers to by Friday so we can move on the nominations. We stand
adjourned.
Senate Environment and Public Works Committee
406 Dirksen
14/01/2009 at 10:00AM
Today, the White House announced the
members
of the White House Environmental Justice Advisory
Council
(WHEJAC). The advisory council will provide advice and recommendations
to the Chair of the Council on Environmental Quality (soon to be Brenda
Mallory) and the White House Environmental Justice Interagency Council
on how to address current and historic environmental injustices.